"THE GLORY is the closest to fantasy I have ever penned"

Korea's weekly film magazine, Cine21, has prepared a special feature article 'Series of the year.' Kim Eun-sook, the writer behind the Netflix drama The Glory has been recognized as the outstanding writer of the year. As Kim Eun-sook dives into the final stages of scripting her upcoming project, we had the chance to meet with her and reflect on her previous works, including The Glory. 

Kim Eun-sook (Photo: Netflix)

First, congratulations on being named Writer of the Year by journalists and critics of Cine21. How do you feel about this achievement?

It is something I never imagined happening, so the feeling is just incredible. Although, I must admit, facing all these challenging and numerous questions can be daunting. “I AM SO EXCITED. Shall SLOWLY THE TWO OF US DIE TOGETHER during the interview?” (laughs)

** Note - these two answers in CAPITAL are famous lines from The Glory, Netflix.

The question from your daughter, ‘Mom, would you be more heartbroken if I beat someone nearly to death or if I got beat nearly to death by someone else?’ is well known as the beginning of The Glory. How did this question affect you during the writing of the script?

That question led me to keep following the protagonist's character. When crafting the script, I envisioned Moon Dong-eun (played by Song Hye-kyo) and the victims of school violence from my research as my own daughter. This approach guided me in setting standards for their choices: acting decisively, seeking solace from around, and condensing moments of frustration to focus on swift and resolute retaliation. The question inspired me to infuse the script with a mother's affection for her daughters.

In the first episode of Part 1, the violence which young Dong-eun experienced depicted with shocking intensity.

The director and I deliberated extensively because we knew that the intensity of violence sets a high entry barrier of viewership. Eventually, we decided to portray it as the maximum level feasible for broadcast. It was crucial for viewers to vicariously experience the victims' suffering and collectively feel outrage for the story to progress. Equally important was revealing what kind of agony the perpetrators wished upon the victims in a disturbingly realistic way. So, we did not merely imply with sound, we depicted the scenes visually without turning the camera, but much harsher actual cases that emerged after the drama concluded made us were even quite surprised.

Viewers might draw to or even idolize the group of perpetrators due to their affluent appearance. However, the drama seems to desire to erase, and further almost eliminate, any single possibility of such admiration.

Yes, it was. And I also trusted in the discernment and beliefs of the viewers. While they might admire the clothes, apartments, or cars of the perpetrators, I believed they wouldn't idolize the act of perpetration itself. If they did admire, would not they have to idolize the fate of Yeon-jin (played by Lim Ji-yeon) also, the representative of the perpetrators? However, after the broadcast, there were critics pointed out that it inadvertently led to the glorification of wealth and power. It made me reconsider whether we should have scrutinized the script more meticulously.

How did your husband and daughter react to The Glory?

My husband asked, 'Were you always this good at cursing?' and my daughter demanded her share of the credit. (laughs) Knowing how I struggled while writing The Glory, they are even happier with the positive outcome. Honestly, I thought The Glory would not do well. It was my first attempt in this genre, and I was not sure if I was doing it right. Since it was a pre-produced drama, I could not gauge the audience's reaction beforehand. Watching Song Hye-kyo's performance eased my worries, but I realized it might not appeal to those who consume dramas solely for entertainment. I promised myself not to be hurt even if it did not go well, but the positive response was quite an astonishing experience for me. In my opinion, Korean viewers have a good eye for dramas. (laughs)

Despite your having written it with pride and affection, the drama City Hall faced criticism suggesting it was too strongly rooted in auteurism. The romance drama that recorded high viewership was also criticized for touching upon the public's Cinderella complex. You must have been struggling between crafting a 'well-made drama' and a 'people-pleasing drama'. How was it when you wrote The Glory?

In the past, prime-time dramas aired simultaneously on three major channels at 10PM, and success relied on viewership. Nowadays, the criteria for a drama's success have become highly intricate. With a diverse viewership, pleasing everyone becomes impossible. It is said that focusing solely on overall ratings isn’t enough. Attention shifts to ratings among the 2049 age group, and even if it is just 4% to 10% among the group, considering it a success.

City Hall was a work infused with my political perspective, something I deeply cherished. However, there were remarks around me suggesting, 'Kim Eun-sook is done for now.' To comfort myself, I leaned towards the term 'auteurism' during that period. The truth is obvious. All we need to do is make a drama that people will like. However, it is truly challenging. The evaluation of drama can change with time. Sometimes, when you revisit a drama, you once found immensely enjoyable, you realize it might be biased. Hence, if I can gain either 'entertainment' or 'significance,' I consider it a success. The Glory was a story I wanted to write, regardless of its commercial success. I did not want to obsess over the outcome, but ironically, the good outcome made me obsess over it. You never know in life, really. (laughs)

I have this kind of imagination where you wrote The Glory with the mindset of 'I can write this well, I will show you' (laughs). It is a work that can deliver both ‘entertainment’ and ‘significance’, isn’t it? 

Not exactly. I have this anxiety of failing to finish my work in time. Then, what should I write? To be honest, dealing with TV drama ratings has been agonizing all along. That is why I shifted to creating content for OTT platforms. It was not because I had confidence. In fact, it was quite the opposite. I have always been a writer who should be ambitious, aiming to excellency and keep proving oneself. Feeling pressured to outdo myself after each success wore me out. I felt like I had already failed, so I wanted to write stories I desired without pressure. Being on a platform where ratings are not a concern eased my burden. 

Balancing both entertainment and significance requires considerable expertise. Often, focusing too much on both can make the script dull. The Glory touched upon societal issues and was fortunate to be well-received in many ways. However, luck does not work in the writer’s favor. If I had to choose between entertainment and significance in dramas, entertainment takes precedence. When discussing dramas, don't we usually ask, 'Was that drama entertaining?' rather than 'Was that drama significant?' I often tell my juniors, 'Dramas are not literature, they are more like mathematics. They require careful balancing calculations in writing.

Due to the nature of OTT platforms that offer global simultaneous releases and binge-watching, did you approach it differently compared to TV drama scripts?

Not really. Initially, there were discussions about aiming for a higher rating, possibly NC-17, since it is Netflix. However, even on Netflix, we believed Korean viewers should be prioritized, so we set the standard with them as the primary audience. On the other hand, the binge-watching feature allowed that we could take more adventurous casting risks. We could boldly select supporting actors who were not previously well-established because the system allows the chance to make an impression. Jung Sung-il, who played Ha Do-yeong, was one of those choices. 

Through the experience, I thought Netflix would be right for me. suited me well. In weekly dramas airing twice a week, writers had to face evaluations every week for two to three months. After bearing that burden for 20 years, I was exhausted. However, with Netflix, it was a different dynamic. Whether receiving criticism or praise, attention is concentrated until another new release, allowing one to quietly fade away from the public eye, which I find appealing.

In a previous interview, you mentioned disliking protagonists being criminals. However, this time, the main character violates the law for revenge. What made you break that rule? (laughs)

Back then, I could not see beyond my nose. (laughs) Times change, values evolve, and the concept of an 'anti-hero' emerged. People have learned that a character does not have to be confined within the boundaries of being a criminal. if well-explained, their journey can make them a protagonist. Moving to an OTT platform which embraces more diversity from terrestrial broadcasting was also because The Glory deals with personal revenge. Anyway, I wish the me from the past could see beyond my nose. (laughs)

The perpetrators face punishment not for past wrongs but for their present ones. Dong-eun’s revenge comes with the support of others. While she strikes back from the lowest point, there's still a point in the drama that could be interpreted as a desire for power.

First of all, the perpetrators faced consequences not solely due to their present wrongdoings but because of their lack of remorse and persisting unchanging attitudes, which led to such outcomes. The accumulated misdeeds from the past finally caught up with them at this point. In contrasty, Dong-eun's retribution was brought about by the accumulated kindness and good deeds from various encounters at the factory, and school nurse, landlady, Hyun-nam and her daughter, even Kyung-ran who betrayed her once. The drama has a straightforward tale of poetic justice: good deeds yield rewards; bad deeds yield consequences. 

For me, power should support the victims; society should aspire to uphold such standards. Joo Yeo-jeong and Ha Do-yeong's assistance portrayed not a desire for power but rather the effective use of power’s result. Achieving revenge like Dong-eun’s is nearly impossible in the real. Those in Dong-eun's position can never approach the perpetrators. Hence, while writing The Glory, I realized this is the drama closest to fantasy I have ever penned.

The class narratives you've handled since Lovers in Paris suggest paradox that love surpassing social class boundaries only feasible in fantasies. Take, for instance, the shocking ending in episode 17 of Secret Garden. Kim Joo-won (played by Hyun Bin), a chaebol, races through the rain to die willing to sacrifice himself to save the life of Gil Ra-im (played by Ha Ji-won) who is in a coma. This scene is an example that love across social classes demands miraculous self-sacrifice which is rarely witnessed in real life. Personally, I thought Secret Garden would be a masterpiece if it had ended like this. (laughs)

A lot of people noticed that. The original ending for Secret Garden was as you described. However, people discouraged me from that idea by mentioning it might become Lovers in Paris 2. As a writer, becoming overly immersed in the work can narrow one's perspective. When I received feedback about the ending from various people, everyone expressed skepticism. They told I am the only who want to kill off the protagonists. I changed my mind when I was told that I could not have an irresponsible ending where characters that viewers love to meet a tragic end. After realizing the viewers' strong desire to witness their beloved characters, with whom they've shared laughter and tears, find happiness in the end, I devoted my utmost effort to craft a joyful conclusion. Looking back, I still think changing the ending was the right move, even now.

Like the final episode of Something Happened in Bali. It would have been the cynical ending that implies hierarchy and structure cannot be overcome without death.

To be honest, I also liked the ending of the drama, but I could not even bring up the topic with those around me.

How about Lovers in Paris? Personally, the ending of the drama did not anger me that much. I suspected it wanted to convey the irony that Cinderella fantasies are only feasible in 'dreams’.

Rather, it was that I failed to convey the parallel world I had imagined in my mind. It was an idea that in one world, Kang Tae-young (played by Kim Jung-eun) and Han Ki-joo (played by Park Shin-yang) live happily, while in another parallel world, they are just about to meet. But I did not anticipate such a strong backlash. It took me some time to grasp that this was not a narrative easily embraced by people. I even had interviews reflecting on my choices.

 The Glory (Image: Netflix)

The relationships between Dong-eun and Hyun-nam, Dong-eun and Kyung-ran, also highlight the connections between women who were victims of violence. It shows a realistic female solidarity where they can help each other without needing male rescue. Even the process of Dong-eun and Hyun-nam getting closer boasts a fun that rivals romantic comedies. (laughs)

Seems like I have been carrying hilarious images only for writing romantic comedies for long. But how could my life have been just hilarious? The female solidarity depicted in The Glory was drawn from my own experiences, things I have lived through, heard, seen, or even read. It is the product of where the woman Kim Eun-sook and the successful writer Kim Eun-sook intersected.

In the drama, the characters creating emotional tension with Dong-eun are Joo Yeo-jeong (played by Lee Do-hyun) and Ha Do-yeong. Honestly, I thought Ha Do-yeong was more akin to the typical male lead cliché seen in past Korean dramas. There was a certain scene with him that openly reminds one of In the Mood for Love (2000). (laughs) When conceptualizing The Glory, what roles did you assign to these two characters?

For Joo Yeo-jeong, his role was clear. He supports Dong-eun's revenge and stands in solidarity with the victims. I intendedly hide his past and use it as a pivotal turning point in the storyline. Ha Do-yeong was created to embody a third perspective, not aligning strictly as a victim or perpetrator. Initially, uninvolved, he suggests halting the revenge, but his stance changes when he himself becomes a victim. Both characters wield power, yet I aimed to contrast how they use it differently. However, Ha Do-yeong is In the Mood for Love was emphasized a bit too much. (laughs)

I was quite surprised to see some positive responses hoping for a good outcome between Moon Dong-eun and Ha Do-yeong. Despite the hints throughout the drama exposing that he is not such a good man.

I was surprised to see that reaction, too. (laughs)

However, the dilemma stemming from the widespread enthusiasm for handsome men is existed in previous works like Lovers in Paris, drawing motif from Breakfast at Tiffany's (1961), and in Secret Garden, inspired by The Little Mermaid (1989) and reinterpreted. While some critique narratives for relying on powerful men to overcome class barriers, citing tendencies to idealize male figures and impose limitations on the story line, the captivating fantasy woven around these charismatic male protagonists remains a consistent draw for audiences in your dramas. Amidst the shadow and highlight among characters within the Kim Eun-sook universe, how do you navigate this delicate balance?

It has been 20 years since I started as a drama writer, and during this time, epochs have changed, especially even changes faster these days. When I began, highlighting the male protagonist to attract female viewers for better ratings was the norm. However, I felt somewhat unjust because I think I am the one who always strived to maintain a balanced portrayal of effectiveness between male and female characters in my stories. (laughs) I have always viewed the stories I created as 'mutual salvation narratives’. The male protagonist, who holds power but lacks other things, meets a female protagonist who may lack material possessions but possesses self-respect, intelligence, and a concrete passion for her work and dreams. Then, they learn how to use power in the right way and find redemption together. Criticism that my dramas worship men has been consistent, yet it is also undeniable that this concept has brought me glory. To be completely honest, it is a double-edged sword.

As I revisited Lovers in Paris and Secret Garden, I belatedly realized that the accomplishments of the female characters and actresses Kim Jung-eun and Ha Ji-won were relatively overshadowed at that time. In that sense, witnessing the progressiveness embodied by Go Ae-shin (Kim Tae-ri) in Mr. Sunshine and the recognition of its significance by the public was satisfying. Indeed, times have changed.

Even in the past, I consistently aimed to craft well-rounded female characters, but the audience's attention often gravitated more towards the male protagonists. The Glory presented a storyline where the female lead seeks revenge, which somewhat alleviated some pressure. However, I am currently contemplating how to delicately balance the portrayal of both male and female characters in future projects. I am still puzzled. To ensure that my written lines and situations align with today's audience expectations, seeking the opinions of young writers has become a vital part of this process. For instance, in a scene where a man takes the lead in a kiss, feedback in meetings labels it as 'physical aggression’. However, acknowledging that there are viewers who appreciate such scenes, we cannot disregard their preferences. I am continuously studying to comprehend the appropriate standards for this era.

Even in The Heirs, there were quite a few viewers who appreciated the assertive and independent character of Rachel Yoo (played by Kim Ji-won). It seems not a necessarily for a female character to always be portrayed as a good to captivate the audience's hearts.

It appears that perhaps because Rachel Yoo was not the main character, those aspects were easier to overlook. There used to exist a societal atmosphere where women who were not kind were not really accepted. They were expected to be flawless, pure, and devoid of mistakes while still standing out. Consequently, portraying antagonists was much easier, and creating protagonists had its limitations. However, even back then, there was room for progress…reflecting on this now, I feel a sense of regret.

Recently, people do not seem to have much interest in the stories of victims. Mere sincerity and authenticity as a creator is not enough to captivate the audience. Your recognition as 'Writer of the Year' seems like a testament to your mastery in tackling this challenging task. It can be considered as a successful case of a writer's skill is showcased in desirable direction. What specific techniques did you employ to compel people to listen to voices that people do not interest to listen to? 

When moms share recipes, they often say 'a pinch of salt’, or ‘a suitable amount of garlic', relying on more intuition, don’t you think? If you quantify it as 'a few spoons' of this or that, the taste might not come out the same. The same goes for dramas. I often advise junior writers to ‘portray even horrifying situations in a charming way’ or step just halfway out of box’. The goal should be to create a screenplay that captivates initially and allows for a deeper understanding upon reflection.  

Through TikTok and YouTube shorts, The Glory became more famous. It must be refreshing for the writer to see drama become an important trend in a different way from the days of Lovers in Paris and Secret Garden.

Thanks to my daughter, I discovered TikTok. We had a big argument when I said, 'If you don't read books, what will you become when you grow up?' and she replied, 'Mom! There is a world in here too.' (Laughs) Someone even told me directly, 'I watched the entire drama through YouTube Shorts.' As I checked out YouTube Shorts, it constantly displayed clips from Mr. Sunshine. It was surprising to find reruns available without any compensation for them. (Laughs) If you found it enjoyed the short form, I hope you might watch the full version once or twice out of loyalty. A drama is a comprehensive art that combines script, actors, music, art, editing, and more. Watching only in shorts might erase someone's efforts. While on a plane, I noticed a passenger skipping The Glory in 10 seconds interval. I grew so curious about their actions that I forgot I was heading to the restroom and ended up standing there for 10 minutes without realizing. (Laughs) Anyway, every morning I wake up and find the world has changed. As a writer, it gives me a lot to ponder.

Nevertheless, it's interesting that The Glory was a hit on Netflix and young people went crazy with parody videos on short form platforms. While the writer does not actively delve into the world of TikTok to keep up with the trends. (laughs)

I still have no idea about the reason. Could it be because I wrote it without intending to appeal to young audiences? The Glory was a work where direction, acting, music, and art all came together seamlessly. I think the drama’s success should be granted to that. 

 ​ The Glory (Image: Netflix)

Some reviews suggest that without the writer's name attached, The Glory doesn’t feel like a typical Kim Eun-sook drama. What are your thoughts on such reactions?

Perhaps those individuals might not have seen my previous works. (Laughs) It is not solely remarkable because Song Hye-kyo did a great job with the narration, but there were uncommon words in ordinary drama. Like 'From now on, every single day will be *ominous.', such expressions are uniquely mine. Anyway, I take it as a supreme compliment. I am just pleasantly surprised and happy. Whatever it may be, I hope people continue to watch it a lot.

** Note – In Netflix this word translated into ‘a nightmare’ in English 

Your works always create trendy phrases and memes. Not only the dialogue but also the synopsis is written like a piece of literature. Do you have a secret to writing well-crafted sentences?

It is a question I have been asked for 20 years, and truthfully, there might be something innate. I did not acknowledge it until recently when younger writers around me found it annoying, so I have come to accept it. (laughs) Sometimes during meetings, brilliant lines flow as if some ultimate existence revealed them to me. It leads me to ponder whether writing is an inherent gift, much like friends showcasing artistic talents since age eight. However, a fundamental question still lingers, ‘Can there truly be geniuses in writing?’.

Live with a thesaurus by your side to select exquisite words?

Not at all. I only use it to check for typos.

Do consciously read a lot of books?

Consciously purchase books only. It feels good to have a stack of books. Truthfully, the only time I was a 'reader' was when I enjoyed authors like Oh Jung-hee, Shin Kyung-sook after reading Toji(Land), Arirang, and Taebaeksanmaek. Since becoming a drama writer, most of the books I've read have been for research purposes. Once I find overlapping themes, I explore various sources like webtoons, online novels, web dramas, international series without discrimination. Even if I have not seen a specific work, I can come up with similar ideas, but it is to prevent any potential accusations of plagiarism. Eventually, I get tired, so before falling asleep, I read the 'author's note' of my favorite writer's new book reading to that extent. (laughs) Currently subscribed to seven OTT platforms, if there is a new release anywhere, I watch it at least first and second episodes. Devoting so much time to these activities, I, as a reader, eventually faded away.

Is not there a saying that the books or movies we read or watch in our youth shape our lifelong preferences? Do you think the books Toji(Land), Arirang, Taebaeksanmaek and authors like Oh Jung-hee, Shin Kyung-sook from your days as a reader have impacted your dramas? Does the essence of Kim Eun-sook, who once applied to the Shinchunmunye (Spring Literary Contest) and adored books, still linger within the drama writer Kim Eun-sook?

I enjoy writings with good sentences. I am drawn to elaborate styles, which led me to read poetry collections. Sometimes, while reading poems, I get caught by a single line, then it unfolds a whole new world for me. Those memories of finding words and sentences that captivated me have influenced the way I write dialogue ever since. That is why I advise young writers to read a lot before being writer. Once you start work, you do not have time to read, but you must pick good words from the books you read when you had time for the rest of your life. (Laughs)

Was there a crossroads for the reader Kim Eun-sook to become the writer Kim Eun-sook?

While other friends went to college, I was working as a clerk at a furniture factory in Gangneung, stayed alone in the countryside reading books. When I visited a friend who had opened a new store, I found a film magazine there. The magazine was ‘Cine21’ and it contained an advertisement for the Seoul Arts Institute (now Seoul Institute of the Arts). ‘It was the school where my favorite writer, Shin Kyung-sook, attended.’ I thought, 'I have to go to this school!' As the application deadline was approaching, I hastily prepared my application. I lied to my parents, saying that I got a transfer to the Seoul headquarters, and hurried to Seoul. I took the exam and was accepted. At the age of 27, I entered the Seoul Arts Institute as a student of the Department of Creative Writing in 1997. That is how I was able to become a writer.

Are there any new genres you would like to explore in the future?

I have temporarily paused working on a historical drama. I would like to revisit it someday. It is a story where fictional characters traverse a certain period in real history. While there are male and female protagonists, it leans more toward patriotism than romance. Continuously delving into tragic narratives, including The Glory, started to weigh me down. I struggled to determine whether the stories I was crafting were engaging or not. I noticed that when a writer falls into a gloomy mood, their writing tends to reflect that. With that in mind, I resolved to work on a brighter contemporary drama first. 

Editor’s note - All Will Be Achieved (TBD) is directed by Lee Byeong-heon, starring Kim Woo-bin and Bae Suzy in the lead roles.

By Lim Su-yeon